Crossfit Games 1k Erg test

[fearlesselite]

CrossFit movements put a premium on explosive fast-twitch movement, and so does a 1km erg piece. I'm sure their fitness is good, but I don't think this is an indicator that they could hang with elite or pre-elite rowers for 2km. I bet the muscle fiber composition ratios will be statistically and significantly different...

uhh....what? i don't think you understand crossfit workouts

A circa 3 minute event is one thing, but the aerobic development to go for circa 6 minutes is a physiologically different beast. Sort of like Bond switching to cycling - massive potential & with a dramatic show of dedication, a shift in body composition, & sport specific training, he does well.

a lot of the events are over 6 minutes long.

[sandor]

A circa 3 minute event is one thing, but the aerobic development to go for circa 6 minutes is a physiologically different beast. Sort of like Bond switching to cycling - massive potential & with a dramatic show of dedication, a shift in body composition, & sport specific training, he does well.

a lot of the events are over 6 minutes long.

cool.
i really could not tell looking at the event list.

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[fearlesselite]

you're looking at the open events, which tend to be a little shorter. Keep in mind if a games athlete does something in 3 minutes, it takes an average person 10-15 min. so the workouts tend to be pretty short so everyone can do them.

the games events will usually be a bit longer and impossible to complete for an average person.

a few of my favorites:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjCsx5T ... roductions
"Chaos"
The didn't know what were the movements, how many reps, the weight, etc. They just said "start" and then were told to work until they were told to stop.

How awesome would that be in a rowing race? You don't know if its a 500, 2k or 20k. They say start and you just race until you hear a horn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i1ZC7T ... ssFitGames
"Murph" with a 25lb vest
some of the guys did their first mile (in a vest) in under 6 min. total workout time ~40 minutes

https://youtu.be/7BWwGgOrl9Y?t=668
30 clean and jerks at 135
30 ring muscle ups
30 snatches

~8 min

[Rowcoach]

CrossFit movements put a premium on explosive fast-twitch movement, and so does a 1km erg piece. I'm sure their fitness is good, but I don't think this is an indicator that they could hang with elite or pre-elite rowers for 2km. I bet the muscle fiber composition ratios will be statistically and significantly different...

3min is well into dominantly aerobic contributions. Fast twitch is for very short time periods.
You may be interested to read this article:
https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Full ... d_.20.aspx

Long ago I got told a 2k time will be 97% of your 1k pace

Ostensibly, this would be a prognosticator created off of athletes whose training is based around the 2k event, so applying it to someone who is training with a different focus may have utterly different pace ratios.

Like saying a marathoner's 10k pace is XX% of their marathon pace.
Probably wouldn't hold true if you apply it to an 800 or 1500m runner.

That's certainly not what running does. Running has a very strong link between races at various distances.
https://www.runnersworld.com/training/a ... predictor/
http://www.marathonguide.com/fitnesscal ... ctcalc.cfm

What separates elite rowers, swimmers, cyclists, runners and skiiers from Crossfit type athletes is not physical conditioning. Its the specific discrete movements required to be successful on the water, road or snow. Most Olympic swimming events last less than 2min. But it takes hundreds of hours to develop the water feel to move effectively and efficiently. Same with rowing.

The erg is a much more brutal measure of physical capacity. It doesnt matter much how you do it. Just put force on the flywheel and you will get a good score. But try row like that in a boat and you will be slow. IMO its why the US men largely are not successful on the world stage. When everyone has big ergs they are no longer a discriminating factor. GB, NZL, GER can compete because they can row well AND pull big ergs. The US men seat races it self to mediocrity. On the other hand the US women have shown that when you raise the physical standard you can dominate for a while. Until those that row well raise their physical game.

[sandor]

you're looking at the open events, which tend to be a little shorter. Keep in mind if a games athlete does something in 3 minutes, it takes an average person 10-15 min. so the workouts tend to be pretty short so everyone can do them.

the games events will usually be a bit longer and impossible to complete for an average person.

a few of my favorites:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjCsx5T ... roductions
"Chaos"
The didn't know what were the movements, how many reps, the weight, etc. They just said "start" and then were told to work until they were told to stop.

How awesome would that be in a rowing race? You don't know if its a 500, 2k or 20k. They say start and you just race until you hear a horn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i1ZC7T ... ssFitGames
"Murph" with a 25lb vest
some of the guys did their first mile (in a vest) in under 6 min. total workout time ~40 minutes

https://youtu.be/7BWwGgOrl9Y?t=668
30 clean and jerks at 135
30 ring muscle ups
30 snatches

~8 min

I think the average athletes are probably long gone before the qualifying events are even over.

Chaos would be an awesome event in a boat! Definitely a race i would sign up for (have no clue on the logistics...yet...)


Watching the day-in-the-life videos of Fraser & Toomey (the two winners?) - this is, as they say in the videos, a profession.
3-a days, periodized training plans, $$ rolling in with success.

Fun to watch though - like the beloved worlds strongest man with some lungs! (still have memories of Magnús Ver Magnússon first win)
It makes me want to add more weight to my commute & start running stair up to the office everyday - i am obviously slacking.

[fearlesselite]

Chaos would be an awesome event in a boat! Definitely a race i would sign up for (have no clue on the logistics...yet...)

How about on the erg? line 10 ergs up, coach sets the distance and puts tape over it. Rowers never know.

Project all scores onto a monitor so everyone can see everyone's pace. Watch the micro-aggressions begin. someone trying to be .1 in front of someone else incase the race ends that stroke. Maybe someone whose slower bets the farm the piece will be less than 10 ' and commits, while others sit back expecting it to be 20 to 30'.

[sandor]

Chaos would be an awesome event in a boat! Definitely a race i would sign up for (have no clue on the logistics...yet...)

How about on the erg? line 10 ergs up, coach sets the distance and puts tape over it. Rowers never know.

Project all scores onto a monitor so everyone can see everyone's pace. Watch the micro-aggressions begin. someone trying to be .1 in front of someone else incase the race ends that stroke. Maybe someone whose slower bets the farm the piece will be less than 10 ' and commits, while others sit back expecting it to be 20 to 30'.

Ergs? Not singles, complete with the potential of crabs, flips, and chaos?
Mass start, maybe stake turns. Ergs are more simple though.

That was a telling part of the commentary for me - acknowledging an athletes altered approach from "guns blazing" (and losing) in years past to a controlled pay-attention-to-your-competitors approach in the current year.

[bodyangle]

I can't find it, but there was that documentary about the US men's 8 in the run up to Sydney. There was a clip in practice where Teti basically had them run "chaos" as a workout. I don't remember the exact line but it was something like "we're starting a piece that is somewhere between 2k and 20k. Don't be behind"

^someone can fact check me on this, but pretty sure I didn't make it up

[Remomex]

I can't find it, but there was that documentary about the US men's 8 in the run up to Sydney. There was a clip in practice where Teti basically had them run "chaos" as a workout. I don't remember the exact line but it was something like "we're starting a piece that is somewhere between 2k and 20k. Don't be behind"

^someone can fact check me on this, but pretty sure I didn't make it up

A fine balance? It used to be available for free, but was removed within the last year I think.

[sandor]

You are correct bodyangle

http://www.bradalanlewis.com/index.html
https://www.amazon.com/A-Fine-Balance/d ... ne+Balance

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[Slim]

Carnegie is only 3 miles long, so you always knew the piece wouldn’t be longer than that.

[sandor]

Carnegie is only 3 miles long, so you always knew the piece wouldn’t be longer than that.

that specific scene, with Teti giving the "between 1 and 25 minutes. so..." call was @ a February training camp in Sarasota.
7 months before the Olympics

I'm assuming there was enough water to have the pair of 8's battle @ a 30 for 25 minutes.

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[cleetus]

This kind of piece--competitive, rate-limited, and of indeterminate length was something Teti has been known to do. I was "seat-raced" this way in 1997 at a speed order/ID camp ("This piece will be anywhere between 3 and 18 minutes..."). The result became obvious after about 4 minutes so that's about when he called time (I did not win). It also allowed for about 500m of warmdown on the Carnegie 2k course.

I use it when I coach now, but not in selection situations. It does an excellent job of teaching crews how not to fall behind.

[Stewie Griffin Should Cox]

This kind of piece--competitive, rate-limited, and of indeterminate length was something Teti has been known to do. I was "seat-raced" this way in 1997 at a speed order/ID camp ("This piece will be anywhere between 3 and 18 minutes..."). The result became obvious after about 4 minutes so that's about when he called time (I did not win). It also allowed for about 500m of warmdown on the Carnegie 2k course.

I use it when I coach now, but not in selection situations. It does an excellent job of teaching crews how not to fall behind.

Physiologically disastrous

How many people were in the boat? You simply cannot seat race in this way. It would create too many variable that you would have no control over

[cleetus]

Stewie, to clarify, I do not think for a minute Teti did actual selection for any boats this way. In the late 90s, ID camps/speed orders in the US were much less formal and were not part of an official selection process (as far as I or my pair partner at the time knew). They were basically a way to get athletes to come to Princeton and see with medium precision how non-camp athletes stacked up against camp athletes and to make sure the national team coaches had some rough estimation of what was going on at the clubs. This specific "seat race" was the afternoon session in 8s with mixed heavyweights and lightweights, and often pairs (a lightweight and a heavyweight) were switched. The morning had been pairs racing, 2 x 2k (we had not been told it would be 2 x 2k, btw--the 2nd was a surprise). The camp pairs (as far as I know) were scratch boats, but most non-camp boats had been training together for at least a few weeks.

Anyway, I still like the underlying idea behind competitive racing pieces of indeterminate length when used judiciously. Just not for selection purposes. Apologies for helping to derail this thread. :p