FAT2 Adoption?

[taylste]

Anecdotally, it seems the FAT2 has not received widespread acceptance, especially among the elite rowing community. Even at the club level, use seems quite low and sporadic. I thought the blade was among the most efficient (less slip) given it's large blade area (857cm sq). Of course, slip is less meaningful if one cannot propel the blade through the water fast enough to generate efficient handle force and a desirable racing stroke rate. I have tried the blade (at various lengths) and have not found a 'sweet spot'. Perhaps, a smaller, less efficient blade (Smoothie 2, for example) is more suited to a lwt 50+ master rower like myself. I.e. A blade that is easier to drive through the water.

Thoughts?

[lt.wolf]

Seems like the scullers from Craftsbury have taken a liken to them. Possibly since they are sponsored in part. John Graves has used them as well as a few of the others. Thought I saw a picture or two of Henrick using them as well

[SwagRowerYOLO]

I have a set of them.

They seem to be drastically more efficient than any blade I've used before. I've knocked 5cm outboard off each side in an effort to make them not feel heavy.

The connection you get off them between the catch and the pin is super solid and feels amazing. However they do feel looser beyond that point.

I like them, but it's a pain not being able to rig from the chart on the wall.

[jakeinseattle]

The connection you get off them between the catch and the pin is super solid and feels amazing. However they do feel looser beyond that point.

I like them, but it's a pain not being able to rig from the chart on the wall.

I also have a pair, and I echo the sentiment. Catches feel pretty crisp for whatever reason. And I have slow, bumbling hands. Rigging is definitely an adventure though.

[KiwiCanuck]

Anecdotally, it seems the FAT2 has not received widespread acceptance, especially among the elite rowing community. Even at the club level, use seems quite low and sporadic. I thought the blade was among the most efficient (less slip) given it's large blade area (857cm sq). Of course, slip is less meaningful if one cannot propel the blade through the water fast enough to generate efficient handle force and a desirable racing stroke rate. I have tried the blade (at various lengths) and have not found a 'sweet spot'. Perhaps, a smaller, less efficient blade (Smoothie 2, for example) is more suited to a lwt 50+ master rower like myself. I.e. A blade that is easier to drive through the water.

Thoughts?

I haven't had a lot to do with them but... At a presentation from Andrew Sliasas almost 2 years ago, (He's modelled blade/water interaction during work on fluid dynamics post-graduate studies) we learned that an important bit of the blade has been cut away on the corners of the blade tip. The "lift" forces work better if the blade is left with relatively squared corners in the fashion of the Croker blade or the C2 "smoothie" without vortex edges...
IIRC, of course.

[yeahbuddy]

blades are solid at the catch as most are stating. you need to keep building the speed of the blade with suspension to have them be effective, a less skilled rower will have trouble holding onto the speed at the end of the stroke cycle .

[boston_1x]

Re elite buy-in... I think you need to differentiate between 1x and team boats. Team boats mean everyone has to buy in. And the bigger blade face has its nuances.

I think the biggest difference in these blades is what happens between -70dg and -30dg, in other words, from a very full catch angle to peak power. After that, I think the differences between Fat2s and Smoothies are minimal. So one question you have to ask yourself, is what is your catch angle? I would hazard a guess that many rowers are a lot shorter than they realize, and if 55-60dg, it would make sense they don't notice a difference.

Two, Fat2s do best with constant pressure front to back. 1) because load goes up exponentially at big catch angles, you need to match your strength application to that, or you will fry in a race, or get hurt in training; and 2) to maximize effective length (degrees of arc w/ power >= 70pct of peak force) you also need to minimize release slip.

Three, outboard is very sensitive to arc/load, but also rating. As rhythm changes, when you have figured everything else out, as stroke rate goes up, outboard needs to be lightened slightly, or you will physiologically red line too soon in a race. The bigger the blade face, the more the need for this sensitivity.

Fourth, re oar size selection & rigging... personal rules of thumb for Fat2s... I have my hips a couple of inches through the pin now (to get 65dg on front end), same inboard/spread as other oars... which involved moving both feet and pin. For head racing at 32spm, my oars are 88:282.5 versus 88:289.5 (7cm difference). W/ Fat2s coming in 275-280 and 280-285 oar length options, there is an awkward middle range where I think alot of scullers could go to one set of oars for a 1x and the other for a 2x/4x... which costs $$$. You cannot overemphasize that you need to initially rig for a light outboard when trying to increase catch angle, so you don't get hurt.

I sort of look at blade shape and size having one primary objective: Giving you a stable platform to push on... so no slip is best. Everything is is rigging and power application. I can see how an optimized Fat2 blade for a lightweight master could be a shaved down smaller area & still accomplish this. If you like more slip for whatever reason, Fat2s go in another direction. An analogy here is flyrodding... if you don't have good rod tip control & precise power application, you would like a fishing rod with more flex/forgiveness.

Net net, I have been using Fat2s w/ good success for 8yrs now, but hopefully these somewhat complicated thoughts show that they can be good for one person & maybe not effective or the best choice for someone else, for any one of several reasons.

Add in team boat dynamics, & I think this addresses your adoption-related question.

[SwagRowerYOLO]

blades are solid at the catch as most are stating. you need to keep building the speed of the blade with suspension to have them be effective, a less skilled rower will have trouble holding onto the speed at the end of the stroke cycle .

Of course, never let a rowing discussion go by without a little sneer at people.

Regardless of people's ability different shaped sticks will obviously have different dynamics as they interact with the water. These blades seem to have drastically different levels of slip/grip as their angle off the pin changes.

[yeahbuddy]

never a sneer, just a simpler way of stating what boston_1x stated, " fat2s do best with constant pressure front to back". most scullers are unable to apply constant pressure and the speed slips off. keep the pressure, even build it and the boat moves quicker.


one would ponder how a sculler the size of mahe would set up the fat2s? the kiwis appear to be switching blades in favor of c2

[KitD]

Re elite buy-in... I think you need to differentiate between 1x and team boats. Team boats mean everyone has to buy in. And the bigger blade face has its nuances.

I think the biggest difference in these blades is what happens between -70dg and -30dg, in other words, from a very full catch angle to peak power. After that, I think the differences between Fat2s and Smoothies are minimal. So one question you have to ask yourself, is what is your catch angle? I would hazard a guess that many rowers are a lot shorter than they realize, and if 55-60dg, it would make sense they don't notice a difference.

Two, Fat2s do best with constant pressure front to back. 1) because load goes up exponentially at big catch angles, you need to match your strength application to that, or you will fry in a race, or get hurt in training; and 2) to maximize effective length (degrees of arc w/ power >= 70pct of peak force) you also need to minimize release slip.

Three, outboard is very sensitive to arc/load, but also rating. As rhythm changes, when you have figured everything else out, as stroke rate goes up, outboard needs to be lightened slightly, or you will physiologically red line too soon in a race. The bigger the blade face, the more the need for this sensitivity.

Fourth, re oar size selection & rigging... personal rules of thumb for Fat2s... I have my hips a couple of inches through the pin now (to get 65dg on front end), same inboard/spread as other oars... which involved moving both feet and pin. For head racing at 32spm, my oars are 88:282.5 versus 88:289.5 (7cm difference). W/ Fat2s coming in 275-280 and 280-285 oar length options, there is an awkward middle range where I think alot of scullers could go to one set of oars for a 1x and the other for a 2x/4x... which costs $$$. You cannot overemphasize that you need to initially rig for a light outboard when trying to increase catch angle, so you don't get hurt.

I sort of look at blade shape and size having one primary objective: Giving you a stable platform to push on... so no slip is best. Everything is is rigging and power application. I can see how an optimized Fat2 blade for a lightweight master could be a shaved down smaller area & still accomplish this. If you like more slip for whatever reason, Fat2s go in another direction. An analogy here is flyrodding... if you don't have good rod tip control & precise power application, you would like a fishing rod with more flex/forgiveness.

Net net, I have been using Fat2s w/ good success for 8yrs now, but hopefully these somewhat complicated thoughts show that they can be good for one person & maybe not effective or the best choice for someone else, for any one of several reasons.

Add in team boat dynamics, & I think this addresses your adoption-related question.

Lots of interesting info. Thanks.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying the Fat2s grip so well at the front of the stroke that you can't apply effort on the handle in the same way as you would for Smoothie or BigBlade or else you'll exhaust yourself quickly. To me this sounds exactly as if the Fat2 is resisting the rower's effort much better than the others. The load felt on the handle is only the load applied by the rower. The blade itself doesn't add to the load, but a slipping blade will detract from it.

Ergo Fat2s don't slip. The rower may need to change their technique but the end result is that they will waste less energy.

[Stelph]

Just to add to this thread, im aware of this site where the author has actually used fluid dynamics software to map out a stroke through the water and then compare the Fat2 vs the concept big blade

https://sites.google.com/site/surgingfo ... g-research

Althought I'd recommend going through the whole site, I'd especially draw attention to this page where each phase of the stroke is explained, as it clearly explains why the first part of the stroke is the most efficient....

https://sites.google.com/site/surgingfo ... ing-stroke

....which then goes on to explain and show why, on the computer at least, the Fat2 is more efficient in the first part of that stroke

https://sites.google.com/site/surgingfo ... lade-shape

And then discusses the rigging and technique implications that the above outcome suggests. It's an interesting read and seems to align with concept2's own data


Also, less scientific but still interesting, I stumbled across this site where a sculler has also tested the "Swiss rigging" and seems to like it (which would make sense as 156cm span would encourage a long catch angle, supporting the science above)

http://rowscience.com/2012/12/12/fat2s/

[lt.wolf]

Seeing more of them popping up , watching the European Championships and there are more than just one or two boat utilizing them. I am awaiting the Croker Arrow.

[vancbc]

I've been seeing more of the Skinny Fat2's as well, I still love my Fat2's, still rowing them relatively short compared to more standard oars.

[hurtlocker]

I am probably missing it. I do not see it. I see some experimentation in Euro but not acceptance. Original smoothies are becoming more common but I have no idea why. Maybe Charlotte is right that catch angles are static and finish length is increasing so.... Crokers and Smoothies

[mightyquinn]

I have FAT2s and Crokers. Even with identical inboard and spread, I find (based on GoPro video analysis) that I appear to miss less water at the catch with the FAT2s. Maybe the lower edge of the blade shape on the square just enters the water faster. Don't know, but I like them.