Champ Eights 2015

[TomH]

Sorry but all the in depth analysis of HYP and WC is really irrelevant. The colleges want to win and will bend their admission rules. The difference is simply the coaches. Yale was virtually useless in terms of IRA rowing. It took Gladstone 5 years to build a program that could attract the athletes but he did it.

It is not the Yale program, it is the Gladstone program. You could move Gladstone, Teti and Callahan to any of the top 15 colleges and after a few years their programs would be on top of the heap. Now if only we could extract the essence from these guys and bottle it......

I think the ol' rowing boys at Yale would have sold their grandmothers to see Yale beating Harvard this spring.

[the_dude]

No Ivy will allow admission standards to suffer too long for a sport, but they do make moves to advance certain sports for a period of time. Clearly, Yale rowing has been in that mode recently like Harvard ice hockey in the late 80s, Princeton lacrosse in the 90s and Yale hockey a few years ago. But it never lasts and it wont at Yale. Gladstone knows this better than anyone. When Hubert graduates next spring, he will be impossible to replace and they are a vastly different crew without him. There's no one like him in collegiate rowing other than possibly the stern pair at Cal. It could be this year or bust for Yale for a variety of reasons.
As far as coaching secret sauce, Gladstone wins wherever he goes with a model that primarily focuses on recruiting. Teti has pretty much simply continued what Steve did prior to him. Callahan seems to have a little bit of everything going for him: top tier international talent, tons of domestic talent and a robust walk-on program. They all are excellent coaches too. On top of those 3, Paul Cooke seems to do some pretty special things. His boat at the Charles was a microcosm of US high school rowing consisting of 3 Exeter grads, 1 Deerfield grad, 1 Andover grad, 1 Marin oarsman, 1 Oakland Strokes oarsman and 1 oarsman from the Pacific NW coxed by a Brit. They'll most likely surprise all of us at the Sprints and IRAs too like they always do.
I'm looking forward to the spring. Yale or Cal should walk away with the title given their talent on paper. The same could be said for them last year and we know how that worked out.

[Stewie Griffin Should Cox]

Man United were awesome under Sir Alex Ferguson and bought in some of the worlds best.

When David Moyes took over they stopped coming. Why? Athletes go to coaches not college brands. So Man Utd dumped Moyes and God van gal and now the athletes come again

If I were a top Junior today I'd go where the coach is.

[Shankly]

In UW's case, the new coach was a big jump up from the previous fellow. A great tradition, D1 footbal-style academic recruiting standards, loose to nonexistent rules as there is no NCAA oversight, no scholarship limits, have all created a perfect winning storm. The place, not the man, is perfect but the man is smart and resouceful and pulled it all together like no one else. These programs thrive on an unlevel playing field. All (or most) of the past decade's IRA winners have done it with older guys which is probably the biggest advantage of all. Gladstone and Cal in '02, as an example, 6 of those guys had already been in the 2000 Oly's, that's 4 aces that no one can beat. UW with McCabe, Cal with Oliver (who is probably at least 30 now and he won the IRA just 5 years ago) and Yale with Hubert who last rowed in the JR. Worlds in '09 when many of his current competitors were still in the eraly stages of puberty. The point is, those guys and programs are bound by one real "rule" and that's unequal talent leads to victory. If you don't believe this then look at the USMNT, that coach, formerly at UW, arguably has the chops that the head coach did and how's he doing competing on a level playing field? When thy don't have it, they lose, if they've got it, they have a shot at least among the few playing the game. We may never seee anyone ever winning the IRA again that isn't Cal, UW, Yale, or Harvard. The BU's, NU's, all the other Ivies, Navy, and the rest literally have no chance ever, repeat, ever, in the current set up.
I agree also 100% that the shelf-life of Yale is short, very short. This is the year, do it now or never.

[goblin]

In UW's case, the new coach was a big jump up from the previous fellow. A great tradition, D1 footbal-style academic recruiting standards, loose to nonexistent rules as there is no NCAA oversight, no scholarship limits, have all created a perfect winning storm. The place, not the man, is perfect but the man is smart and resouceful and pulled it all together like no one else. These programs thrive on an unlevel playing field. All (or most) of the past decade's IRA winners have done it with older guys which is probably the biggest advantage of all. Gladstone and Cal in '02, as an example, 6 of those guys had already been in the 2000 Oly's, that's 4 aces that no one can beat. UW with McCabe, Cal with Oliver (who is probably at least 30 now and he won the IRA just 5 years ago) and Yale with Hubert who last rowed in the JR. Worlds in '09 when many of his current competitors were still in the eraly stages of puberty. The point is, those guys and programs are bound by one real "rule" and that's unequal talent leads to victory. If you don't believe this then look at the USMNT, that coach, formerly at UW, arguably has the chops that the head coach did and how's he doing competing on a level playing field? When thy don't have it, they lose, if they've got it, they have a shot at least among the few playing the game. We may never seee anyone ever winning the IRA again that isn't Cal, UW, Yale, or Harvard. The BU's, NU's, all the other Ivies, Navy, and the rest literally have no chance ever, repeat, ever, in the current set up.
I agree also 100% that the shelf-life of Yale is short, very short. This is the year, do it now or never.

Ever? What's changed since Wisconsin in 2008? What's the actual difference between Harvard and Brown at this point? Or Princeton?

I agree it will be challenging for any of these crews to be perennial contenders, but I don't agree with your assessment that nobody else will ever sneak one away.

[the_dude]

Ok, let's get in touch with reality or just history. No one has been in UW's league in the past 5 years, but its not Yale, Cal or Harvard that can claim 2nd place, it's Brown. Here is the data over the past 5 years:

UW - 5 golds
Brown - 2 silvers, 1 bronze, 4th place, 5th place - 3 medals, top 5 every year
Harvard - 2 silvers, 1 bronze, 5th place twice - 3 medals, top 5 every year
Cal - 1 silver, 2 bronze, 4th place, 5th place - 3 medals, top 5 every year
Princeton - 1 bronze, 4th place - 1 medal, 2 top 5s
Wisco - 4th place - 1 top 5
NU - 4th place - 1 top 5
Syracuse - 5th place - 1 top 5
Yale - zero, zippo, zilch, nada, nil

So the facts are pretty clear, outside of UW, Brown has been the top performing program with Harvard and Cal a close second and 3rd. Outside of that, only Princeton has seen the medal stand and is far from being a regular in the mix.
Again, Paul Cooke has done some pretty special things and outside of Mike Callahan he has put together the most successful collegiate program over the past 5 years. And he's done it without a lot of fanfare and a lot of kids who raced 1500m in high school. If Hubert went to Brown instead of Yale, they'd probably have knocked UW off the top podium once or twice.

[Shankly]

Gobs;
Good points but I like being dramatic. I guess the takeaway is more like 'it is possible but really unlikely in any given year'.

[str8four]

Ever? What's changed since Wisconsin in 2008?

The simple answer is that Freshmen are now allowed to row in the V8. This 'small" change now further stacks the deck in favor of elite recruiting schools like Cal, Harvard, Yale, UW and Princeton. I agree with your general point (and Shanky's less dramatic takeaway) that it would be very hard for anyone else to crack into that top tier, but not impossible.

I also agree that the best work being done in men's IRA coaching is being done at Brown. Cooke is "Gladstone trained" and now Penn has tapped another Gladstone protege to attempt their resurgence. Outside of HYP-CW I think Brown's success should give hope to all of the following programs that with the right coach, some more support and a few years to work with, your program might be able to get to the mountain top.

Penn - Just brought in new coaching blood. Will they give him the tools to recruit?
Cornell - Todd's record with the lightweights shows he can flat out coach when the talent playing-field is level. Can Cornell invest in recruiting to get that kind of heavyweight talent?
Northesatern - with enough scholarship $$$ the eastern Huskies could be as fast as the western Huskies
Stanford - going to school in Palo Alto and getting a Stanford degree has gotta stack up favorably against almost everyone else. Get the Cardinal some scholarship $$$ and they'll be back in the medals.
Columbia - NYC has appeal and there is no reason they can't pull in the same talent Brown gets.

Outside of HYPB-CW and the five schools listed above I don't see any other program having a chance to crack into the medals UNLESS something really dramatic happened, like $10 million in new scholarship money coming into Syracuse, BU, Georgetown, or Oregon State. As much as I'd love to see Navy in the medals, the truly elite American talent will likely get siphoned-off by one of the other schools. The best the Midshipmen can hope for with the current system is to sneak a Bronze medal at IRA once every 10 - 15 years.

[matt1984]

So the facts are pretty clear, outside of UW, Brown has been the top performing program with Harvard and Cal a close second and 3rd. Outside of that, only Princeton has seen the medal stand and is far from being a regular in the mix.
Again, Paul Cooke has done some pretty special things and outside of Mike Callahan he has put together the most successful collegiate program over the past 5 years. And he's done it without a lot of fanfare and a lot of kids who raced 1500m in high school. If Hubert went to Brown instead of Yale, they'd probably have knocked UW off the top podium once or twice.

Coincidence that for the past 4 years the only Dual race UW has had with an Ivy has been with Brown? Its been a great early season measure of speed, though both coaches have really played it down as a friendly.

[hbh1636]

So the facts are pretty clear, outside of UW, Brown has been the top performing program with Harvard and Cal a close second and 3rd. Outside of that, only Princeton has seen the medal stand and is far from being a regular in the mix.
Again, Paul Cooke has done some pretty special things and outside of Mike Callahan he has put together the most successful collegiate program over the past 5 years. And he's done it without a lot of fanfare and a lot of kids who raced 1500m in high school. If Hubert went to Brown instead of Yale, they'd probably have knocked UW off the top podium once or twice.

Coincidence that for the past 4 years the only Dual race UW has had with an Ivy has been with Brown? Its been a great early season measure of speed, though both coaches have really played it down as a friendly.

I always assumed that started via the connection between Luke McGee and Brown, as he was the frosh coach there before moving on to UW. It began when he was still on staff IIRC.

[matt1984]

So the facts are pretty clear, outside of UW, Brown has been the top performing program with Harvard and Cal a close second and 3rd. Outside of that, only Princeton has seen the medal stand and is far from being a regular in the mix.
Again, Paul Cooke has done some pretty special things and outside of Mike Callahan he has put together the most successful collegiate program over the past 5 years. And he's done it without a lot of fanfare and a lot of kids who raced 1500m in high school. If Hubert went to Brown instead of Yale, they'd probably have knocked UW off the top podium once or twice.

Coincidence that for the past 4 years the only Dual race UW has had with an Ivy has been with Brown? Its been a great early season measure of speed, though both coaches have really played it down as a friendly.

I always assumed that started via the connection between Luke McGee and Brown, as he was the frosh coach there before moving on to UW. It began when he was still on staff IIRC.

I think you're totally right on that and I think both teams get a lot out of the racing. Last year was Washington's first ever race on the Seekonk (I think).