Scullers Entry

[singlesculler]

I've stayed relatively quiet on this thread, but I thought I'd step in and make a couple small points. I trained under Frank Cunningham's eyes for ~12 years, 8 of which were fairly serious (I was racing at NSR's, trials, SO's in the 1x). I agree with a lot of what both sides are saying. The "sculler's catch" (however you want to call is it) an excellent way to learn to put pressure on the blade early. From a novice/intermediate level rower's perspective, with a squared entry, it is very easy to start the drive by gingerly putting the oar in the water and gradually start pulling, with a lot of the pressure not actually coming on till 1/2 way through the drive. This is very evident if you ever go to masters nationals and watch some of the 8's row, it's horrible to watch. For a lot of them, the blade takes until 1/2 slide before it's fully buried. With the so called "sculler's entry" you can't pussy foot around. You have to kick the catch, otherwise you'll crab, or slice the oar in. Once you have learned the feeling of putting that pressure on immediately at the catch (something I believe Kleshnev advocates for), then you can go ahead and begin to square before the entry. The greatest benefit to the scullers catch is to learn to put full pressure on immediately, and drive that home straight to the release, i.e. unweighting/suspending your butt/body up off the seat during the drive. Doing the "catch drill", where you sit feathered at the catch position and kick your legs to square the blade and put pressure on the blade (and if you do it really well from stationary, you can actually stand up, I've seen it done) is an excellent way to learn and instill the idea of putting pressure on early, and most importantly at full reach.

Once I got the skill down, I didn't use it during racing. I squared right before the catch, with the bottom of the blade touching the water (with squared blade) right as my wheels were changing direction. I made sure I had that same feeling though of immediate pressure on the face of the blade that I had while doing the catch drill. We also used tubing taped to the stern to watch the spout of water coming up to work on minimizing the check, while still getting the pressure on ASAP. it's all about timing. For the most part, Frank was pretty pleased with my rowing. I will say though, in super rough water, the 1/2 feather catch is super beneficial, and I think is why I had my best results in horrible water ( won West coast speed orders one year, did well in NSR's when it was snowing and whitecaps in 2007, canceled the final unfortunately). I'd just come into the catch at 1/2 feathered (skimming right over the waves) and did the "sculler catch" never missing any water, or slamming my squared blade into a white-cap.

So (sorry for the length) "sculler catch" is a good skill (and drill) to learn early application of power, and works great in rough water. As you transition to more Elite level racing, then you need to fine tune your timing and what you do with your blade while it is in the air is much less important then what you do with it in the water (i.e. buried at full slide, early pressure and carry that all the way to finish)

[joeblow]

I'm a little confused. How can you watch the video of Sherri and come away thinking it's effective?

I've never understood Cunningham's technique. He's like Joseph Smith, but instead of finding golden plates in the Catskills that the angel wouldn't let him take he found a better technique that no one wins with. NW Cunningham disciples should start the Church of Latter Drive Catches.

Nothing to do with the man of course, who by all accounts was a wonderful and decent human, but golly, no one does it and goes fast. No one.

[caustic]

I'm a little confused. How can you watch the video of Sherri and come away thinking it's effective?

I've never understood Cunningham's technique. He's like Joseph Smith, but instead of finding golden plates in the Catskills that the angel wouldn't let him take he found a better technique that no one wins with. NW Cunningham disciples should start the Church of Latter Drive Catches.

Nothing to do with the man of course, who by all accounts was a wonderful and decent human, but golly, no one does it and goes fast. No one.

This is a "ad populam" logical fallacy.

Should we really be surprised that a technical aspect of a specific and admittedly small portion of the entire rowing stroke, which was imported by a very few individuals into amateur rowing over a century ago, and was admittedly difficult to learn, didn't make it through decades of time to the point where, today, no rower on the elite level, much less their coaches, or their coaches' coaches, ever even saw it much less heard of it, and we wonder why it's not being used *now*?

There are two reasons why something isn't done. Either A) it has empirical evidence proving it is not the best solution, or B) it was never tried in the first place.

The elite rowing progression is a grist mill; not only do you have to have good technique, but you have to have top coaching, top fitness, top equipment, top training environments, and top motivation. When it is all said and done, if I am an elite rower, I have greater things to focus on than my catch. If I have to choose between taking several training sessions to adopt a catch I never learned before, or choosing to put in some quality rowing in a style I already know, I will choose the latter simply because of logistics.

I freely admit that I have no empirical evidence to prove that it would be a better catch; I think that there are arguments that can be made to *point* to it having a *potential* improvement.

But what I see today is a lot of a "well,this is what it is today, that means it must be the best!". Rowing is not evolution, and even if it was, evolution is littered with examples of adaptations that were superior, but failed to propagate because of singular, rare, shitty circumstances. Were it not for a big a$$ meteor, an admittedly shitty event, the dinosaurs would still be around we wouldn't. That does not mean that the evolved forms of the dinosaurs were not uniquely adapted to be the best predators of their environment, or even the one that followed after the event's effects had abated on the planet. It also doesn't mean that they would have automatically dominated indefinitely, either.

Rowing's technical aspects in the past 30 years, I think have gravitated more towards refining *a* specific technical style, and not experimenting with different technical styles. The concern I have is that just because it's in the box, doesn't mean that there's nothing outside the box that could be useful.

[lt.wolf]

@bd_sculler I was an elite sculler a while ago, now I just row on my own l, or sometimes in a double. I have not had a real coach in years. I am lucky if Charley Butt or Linda Muri make a passing comment. Neither has said much on my catch but my finish is a whole other story. I am likely not to attempt it this winter , maybe I will give it a go later on. Likely not as I am in trained in what I feel is an effective entry/catch process.

What I notice in the Worlds video is that there are a lot of atheltes working on preparing the blade early for once you are up at a 36-39 you need to be able to get the blade in effectively.

[Steven M-M]

singlesculler -- Thank you for your thoughtful post. Was Frank C still coaching you when you shifted to the squared entry? If 'yes,' what were his thoughts and advice? And, yes, 'timing is everything' with a poorly timed square entry and power application a fault too often seen among the ranks of us 'so-called' masters. (I often have to explain when I say I'm a masters rower, that its an age, not skill, thing.)

[bd_sculler]

I'm a little confused. How can you watch the video of Sherri and come away thinking it's effective?

--snip-- but golly, no one does it and goes fast. No one.

Did you watch the video around 3:00? That looks pretty effective to me, although unusual compared to how people scull today. But what do I know? I admit I am not a coach nor an expert sculler. Based on her record at least one person did it and went fast.

[rowingpun]

The video of Sherri is convincing, though some strokes you can see some daylight between the bottom edge and the water. To JD's question about blade shape, this is rattling around in my head as well. The C2 large sculling Macon is 18cm at its widest. That means the shaft needs to "travel" somewhere in the range of 6 or 7 cm (I'm not googling "shaft width" to confirm this) to catch up with the bottom edge and square the blade. The fat2 sculling blade is 23cm at its widest, the others are all 21.5, with about 3/4 of that width below the shaft instead of just half. Now we're looking at something in the range of 13-15cm of movement before the shaft catches up and the blade is square. I'm a history teacher and not an engineer, but this is what I can't quite square, pun intended, with the concept of the scullers catch and contemporary equipment.

What is also curious to me is how the sculler's finish is just the opposite: feathering out of the water keeps the shaft stationary and blade fully in the water as long as possible. While squaring out unless done by a robot sees a shaft moving up and towards the stern as the blade is gradually released. Both "scullers" versions use the water as a fulcrum for squaring or feathering, yet seem different in terms of maximizing surface area coverage during power application. To my eye, if the shaft is moving(relative to the boat) toward the stern it should be pushing water.

On the point of diminishing returns over 2k, did we eliminate the more efficient catch with a more efficient blade and find ourselves in the same place?

[bd_sculler]

Let me say again I am not an expert sculler, but my experience with the sculler's catch is that it is easier with the larger blades. At least when I compare using my Staempfli wooden spoons vs C2 Smoothies2. With the smoothies if I drop the blade in with a relaxed grip and the blade is not perfectly squared, such as if I am trying to do the sculler’s catch, or if I am doing the conventional stroke but get the timing off, the water will square the blade for me. That happens with either blade but for me it seems to be a little easier with the smoothies. My experience is that if I get the timing just right with the sculler's catch, the blades magically bury and square themselves with almost no disturbance of the water.

What an interesting thread, especially the comments by singlesculler, caustic, Sul, rowingpun,etc. I wish some more scullers would at least try it as a drill and tell us about it.

[sul]

Let me say again I am not an expert sculler, but my experience with the sculler's catch is that it is easier with the larger blades. At least when I compare using my Staempfli wooden spoons vs C2 Smoothies2. With the smoothies if I drop the blade in with a relaxed grip and the blade is not perfectly squared, such as if I am trying to do the sculler’s catch, or if I am doing the conventional stroke but get the timing off, the water will square the blade for me. That happens with either blade but for me it seems to be a little easier with the smoothies. My experience is that if I get the timing just right with the sculler's catch, the blades magically bury and square themselves with almost no disturbance of the water.

What an interesting thread, especially the comments by singlesculler, caustic, Sul, rowingpun,etc. I wish some more scullers would at least try it as a drill and tell us about it.

A side note about the hatchet blades. The flip catch might feel more effectice with these blades because these blades lock on better with any kind of catch, particularly if the catch isn't so good.

I row interchangeably with macons and hatchets, and I have to focus on catches with the macons to get a good lock.

I have tried flip catching years back, and didn't get the point. I can flip catch when I try, but I would need some coaching on it, as I find myself delaying the drive implulse. I do NOT use this as evidence against the flip catch, as I'm not certain I'm doing it right, but I tried to do it as described, and what I tried to do is what Sherri was doing in her vid.

Another thing to think about, I have done a bit of paddling in a K-1, learned enough about it to teach some junior paddlers and sent one to nat'ls a few years ago.
If you don't get the paddle angle perpendicular to the boat direction at the catch, you pull the boat down to your side, and in my case go for a swim... This is consistent with my claim that lift forces during blade entry on a flip catch would not be loading in the direction of travel, but used just for burying blade.

I was intrigued with singlescullers description, and it fits exactly with my thesis, that it's an exercise to be abandoned by race time, but it was a very useful piece, thanks singlesculler.

[Steven M-M]

Bd-sculler -- If you think that doing the so-called sculler's catch will make your faster, then by all means do drills etc. to perfect it. But if you think that the squared entry is the way to go, then I think focusing on the sculler's catch as a drill will set you back. I've seen lots of scullers who learn by skimming and doing some version of a catch with a feathered blade. This is a habit that is super hard to break. As singlesculler noted, its important to feel a solid connection at the front end, but there are drills, such as backing, that can teach that feeling while still focusing on squared entries.

With a well executed square entry there is connection before the blade is covered, with the best scullers doing subtle, almost imperceptible, movements to set the blade so they have nearly all of their leg drive available when the blade is fulling covered.* The vid of small boat practice at the WC that Wolf shared is full of good examples. Try going frame by frame over Kim Crow's stroke. Note that as soon as the top quarter of the blade is covered you can see connection in her arms and back but almost no movement. When the blade is covered there is nothing fast or rushed, which is evidence of a solid connection. When you see the quick drop of the knees or opening of the back at the catch that is evidence of a poor connection, of not pushing against something solid.

*Did you ever try rowing with just the bottom 1/4 of your blade covered, shaft stays high and dry throughout the stroke. Its surprisingly hard, but it can teach you just the right about of power to apply on this little bit of blade. This is sort of the opposite of bungie rows which can teach the feel of load.

[bd_sculler]

Bd-sculler -- If you think that doing the so-called sculler's catch will make your faster, then by all means do drills etc. to perfect it. But if you think that the squared entry is the way to go, then I think focusing on the sculler's catch as a drill will set you back. I've seen lots of scullers who learn by skimming and doing some version of a catch with a feathered blade. This is a habit that is super hard to break. As singlesculler noted, its important to feel a solid connection at the front end, but there are drills, such as backing, that can teach that feeling while still focusing on squared entries.

With a well executed square entry there is connection before the blade is covered, with the best scullers doing subtle, almost imperceptible, movements to set the blade so they have nearly all of their leg drive available when the blade is fulling covered.* The vid of small boat practice at the WC that Wolf shared is full of good examples. Try going frame by frame over Kim Crow's stroke. Note that as soon as the top quarter of the blade is covered you can see connection in her arms and back but almost no movement. When the blade is covered there is nothing fast or rushed, which is evidence of a solid connection. When you see the quick drop of the knees or opening of the back at the catch that is evidence of a poor connection, of not pushing against something solid.

*Did you ever try rowing with just the bottom 1/4 of your blade covered, shaft stays high and dry throughout the stroke. Its surprisingly hard, but it can teach you just the right about of power to apply on this little bit of blade. This is sort of the opposite of bungie rows which can teach the feel of load.

Great advice from Steven. As mentioned before, I like to do the sculler's catch as a drill. I don't think I would be faster even if I could perfect it except maybe in a head wind. I am very careful to keep my blades off the water during the recovery doing my attempt at the usual conventional stroke and also when trying to do the sculler's catch. I think I like the sculler's catch as a drill because it forces me to focus on having a relaxed grip and letting the water and the boat help at the catch. My boat is a dream to balance: a newer (2011) Hudson with the little flat spots on the hull so once up to speed it is like sitting on a cement bench. It does not wobble. OK, I exaggerate but it is very easy to set. I have done the backing drills and other top quarter drills. I like square blade rowing, the drill where you feather and square twice during the recovery, or Xeno's drill where you square on one side and feather on the other side. Yes, I have tried the drill with only part of the blade covered during the drive, and I find it is hard to do but thanks for that suggestion. I think I will spend some more time on that drill.