Sculling and my back

[esteroali2]

Like most of my vintage(1961 model) things are starting to wear out. And also like most, my back occasionally flairs up. I read Scott's post and have some questions on posture and drive. As I understand posture, there should be a slight lordotic curve, and the pelvis should be neutral, that is neither tilted fore or aft. Think of it as in the yoga "Tadasna or mountain" standing pose. I also have watched the Calm Waters clip on natural spine and struggle to identify "natural" in my rowing stroke.
I went to rowing camp in January and changed some things in my stroke. Specifically, body angle at the catch and increasing reach. I believe in my zeal to be long, I "hump" my upper back, and drop my chest. This seems in turn to make my lower back lose it's natural curve, and then my pelvis tilts too far forward.
I try to remember at the catch to keep my chest up and out, and it seems that this may come at the expense of some reach/length, either perceived or real. Also, unlike Scott, I seem to lose the natural curve of my lower back and have to consciously remember to sit tall and not slouch. As an aside, is "natural" equivalent to slouching? The lower back and upper back seem to be contoled mostly by core, but also by the pelvis for the lower back, and chest for the upper back.
Ok so here is the question. I have been told and seem to believe that the drive is similar to to a dead lift. As an ex-crossfitter I remember always trying to keep the weight in my heels so I would drive from my hip angle opening and not lift my back, is this correct??? So..... it seems my boogety boo is when I am at the catch, I overreach, drop my chest, and put the weight on my TOES, which prevents me from driving correctly with my legs, and I wind up pivoting at the lower back instead of my hips. Where should your weight distribution be in your feet at the catch relative to your toes and your heels?
Other than two weekend clinics I am a self taught, self coached sculler. Coach You Tube also has helped. Looking for any comments, suggestions etc....I have a Contour Camera(like go pro) and will try to get some shots.
Thanks!

[petermech]

So much could be said in reply to your post. Here is one starting point.
Here is what Valery Klevhnev says about heal verses toe push http://biorow.com/RBN_en_2008_files/200 ... News07.pdf
Here is something about mirror of the recovery to drive. If you tend to swing the body into the catch you will tend to have body swing out at the beginning of the drive. http://biorow.com/RBN_en_2006_files/200 ... News03.pdf

[esteroali2]

Thanks for the links. I read and understood the first article about toe/heel pressure during drive/ Beagle sent the link yesterday as well. That seems fairly straight forward.
The second article about body angle I "think" I understand. The "Grinko" style seems to most closely resemble what I "think" I learned at camp. I am no sure I understand the second half of the article.
Today when I rowed I concentrated on keeping the lumbar spine stationary by maintaining abdomen engagement and trying to pivot body angle from hips. Is this thinking correct?
I also tried to keep upper back more relaxed, and being patient with changing body angle during the drive, using lats as much as possible...is this correct?
Thanks.....

[petermech]

I was thinking about your comment "I wind up pivoting at the lower back instead of my hips"
at the drive and about overreaching during the recovery with the link to the March 2006 newsletter. What the second half of that paper is saying is that rowers tend to mirror the drive and recovery sequence. So if you dive into the catch you will tend to lift the back at the beginning of the drive. Lets say a rower has lack of hamstring flexibility so uses the inertia of the recovery speed to get more reach. They spring into the catch with a swinging back and will spring out with the back. To test for hamstring flexibility; standing up you pivot from the hips keeping the natural curve in the spine. Note how far over you can pivot till the spine starts to bend. The goal for rowing is to be able to pivot 90 degrees. If you can only pivot say 30 degrees then you are going to have difficulty getting into the catch without doing things such as rounding the back or cutting the reach short.
I am a bit nervous about your comment of things are starting to wear out. If things are wearing out I hope you know what is going on from a doctor so you can understand what is right for you rather then what rowers do in general.
Do you place your blades by a lift of the hands on the recovery or do you use the pivot of the back at the beginning of the drive to place your blades in the water?

[esteroali2]

Peter your insight was spot on. I have been focusing on my hands at the catch and you are correct I dip my hands and then pull up at the beginning of the drive. I have been practicing square blade rowing and then trying to square a tiny bit earlier to keep my entire recovery and drive more lateral.
I actually have good flexibilty in the hamstrings but wasn't allowing myself to roll onto my toes.
I now understand the squiggly lines in the second part of the article.
The last oobsession I have is at the finish, it seems so easy to allow your abdomen to cave in and cause you lower back to curve in a slouched posture, I am assumimg this is bad or wrong???
So many things to thinks about and so hard to focus on the minute portions of the stroke and yet not lose sight of the process as a whole.
Thanks,
DL

[mightyquinn]

Like most of my vintage(1961 model) things are starting to wear out. And also like most, my back occasionally flairs up. I read Scott's post and have some questions on posture and drive. As I understand posture, there should be a slight lordotic curve, and the pelvis should be neutral, that is neither tilted fore or aft. Think of it as in the yoga "Tadasna or mountain" standing pose. I also have watched the Calm Waters clip on natural spine and struggle to identify "natural" in my rowing stroke.
I went to rowing camp in January and changed some things in my stroke. Specifically, body angle at the catch and increasing reach. I believe in my zeal to be long, I "hump" my upper back, and drop my chest. This seems in turn to make my lower back lose it's natural curve, and then my pelvis tilts too far forward.
I try to remember at the catch to keep my chest up and out, and it seems that this may come at the expense of some reach/length, either perceived or real. Also, unlike Scott, I seem to lose the natural curve of my lower back and have to consciously remember to sit tall and not slouch. As an aside, is "natural" equivalent to slouching? The lower back and upper back seem to be contoled mostly by core, but also by the pelvis for the lower back, and chest for the upper back.
Ok so here is the question. I have been told and seem to believe that the drive is similar to to a dead lift. As an ex-crossfitter I remember always trying to keep the weight in my heels so I would drive from my hip angle opening and not lift my back, is this correct??? So..... it seems my boogety boo is when I am at the catch, I overreach, drop my chest, and put the weight on my TOES, which prevents me from driving correctly with my legs, and I wind up pivoting at the lower back instead of my hips. Where should your weight distribution be in your feet at the catch relative to your toes and your heels?
Other than two weekend clinics I am a self taught, self coached sculler. Coach You Tube also has helped. Looking for any comments, suggestions etc....I have a Contour Camera(like go pro) and will try to get some shots.
Thanks!

Sounds very familiar. A couple of years ago I was rowing with a curved back and was feeling some lower back pain. Much of the advice I got about improving my posture called for me to sit on my sitz bones. Only after receiving this in a PM from Nosmo, was I able to understand what everyone was telling me:

From Nosmo: "About the pelvis and rotating the hips: I think it is easiest to get feel for this out of the boat first. On a chair sit on your hands and feel your sit bones (aka Sitz bones). Rock forward and backwards. When doing it with a straight back, you will feel that you are rocking on your sit bones, and your lumbar spine will not bend. (Try it bending your back and you will not rock on the sit bones.) Then try it without your hands. Also pay attention to your iliac crest and make sure that it is swinging. Notice the difference both in the pressure on your sit bones and in the postion of your iliac crest with lay back (at the finish), when you are sitting tall and when not. Once you are clear about this in a chair it is easier in a boat. However a seat that does not fit well may make it difficult or even impossible in a boat."

See this link for some before and after video. http://youtu.be/RfFgqSQLZGE. Still lots to work on in the stroke, but I think there is a clear improvement in posture. I know I'm doing it right when I feel my weight pressing my sitz bones into the seat as I pivot my upper body forward on the recovery (after the hands away, but before beginning the slide). Changing my stroke took a lot of effort and focus over many months, much of it on the erg. It requires a stronger core and stronger, more flexible hamstrings. The benefits are worth it, though. I would not worry about any loss of length at the catch. With correct posture, you'll be in a more powerful position, and it will be easier to get the blades in at the catch without missing water. You'll also be making much better use of your hamstrings and glutes, which will improve your effective power. You should achieve your full body angle on the recovery by about the time you break your knees; you're not really looking for additional "reach" once your shins are vertical. I hope this is helpful.

[petermech]

Mightyquinn, some nice thoughts from Nosmo. I looked at your video. I think a next step for you would be to improve your release. Think of your blades locking in the water during the drive which gives you stability. You want to use that stability of the drive at the release to get your blades off the water. Do not wait for all the force during the drive to come completely off the handle before you tap them down. Do not let the force go neutral before you tap down. Do not go beyond that and let the water back against the back of the blade to stabilize the boat. The pull on the handle at the finish will help stabilize the boat. If you give time with no pressure it gives time for the boat to get unstable. Knowing when to tap the blades down is a key to knowing how to balance a boat. Focus on the above. The following may help to clean things up after the above if the bottom edge of the blade does not clear the water enough. Think of the feather happening with the hands as they are going away from the body not into the body. Another is to think of letting the blade as continuing to travel though the air square towards the stern after they are out of the water.
Esteroali2, I coach not to allow the abdomen to cave in and cause the lower back to curve in a slouched posture. Sometimes going to less layback can help with that. The inertia of the body at the finish will want to make your body swing towards the bow. Pulling with the arms a little bit at the finish can help counter that some. Perhaps the hip flexors could use some strength work.

[mightyquinn]

Thanks, Peter. Certainly something to work on. Didn't mean to hijack esteroali2's thread, but having wrestled with the posture problem, myself, I thought the video might be helpful. If you pause the side by side before and after video, I think one can visualize the physical movements required to convert from the slouched posture to the upright posture. It also strikes me how helpful stripes or seams can be when analyzing video taken from the side. In the older footage, the seam of my shirt is always curved whereas in the newer footage it's much more straight.

[esteroali2]

High jack away. This is exactly the information I was looking for. As far as the video, the older one looks just like what I do! What a transformation you made, looks so much better. Any tips on how to do it?

Epiphany du jour....if my sitz bones are rocking my back is not aching.o
Rocking sitz bones enables the lumbar to remain stable.
Stable lumbar equals happy back.

I erged today...it was way too hot to row at lunch.
I did alot of drills which I don't always do.
Arm away pause and pause after body angle helped.
Luckily I can really feel the bones shift as I don't have alot of natural padding,
DL

[KiwiCanuck]

Hi,
We have corresponded in the past about a video you sent me.
WRT pivoting in the lumbar spine vs. pivoting at the hips - it sounds like core stabilization and endurance is a bit of a concern. It may pay to look up backfitpro.com, which is run by Stuart McGill, professor and researcher in Spine Biomechanics at the University of Waterloo. His books are great, and there are some videos from him showing some basic core stabilization and endurance exercises that you can view by searching his name. Here's a link to one of his videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsup3ZvzAjU

[mightyquinn]

High jack away. This is exactly the information I was looking for. As far as the video, the older one looks just like what I do! What a transformation you made, looks so much better. Any tips on how to do it?

Epiphany du jour....if my sitz bones are rocking my back is not aching.o
Rocking sitz bones enables the lumbar to remain stable.
Stable lumbar equals happy back.

I erged today...it was way too hot to row at lunch.
I did alot of drills which I don't always do.
Arm away pause and pause after body angle helped.
Luckily I can really feel the bones shift as I don't have alot of natural padding,
DL

As far as tips go, I can share what I did, but others might have better suggestions. Most of my work was done on the erg in the winter of 2012/13. Lots of steady state while focusing on maintaining upright posture (once I knew what it felt like -- thanks to Nosmo). Typical workout was 3x20' at 18spm. Not normally a demanding workout, but because I lacked the strength in my core and hamstrings, it was excruciatingly uncomfortable at first. Sitting up is not hard, but if you're accustomed to slouching, then sitting up for hundreds of consecutive strokes is taxing. Ditto for the hamstrings. With proper posture, I was using my hamstrings to draw into the catch (erg on C2 sliders) and the hammies were engaged at the catch. So, lots of use of underdeveloped muscles. Once back in the boat, I focused on achieving and maintaing the upright posture. It had not become automatic, but I was able to concentrate on it coming out of the finish. Visualization helped. I would try to picture creating lots of space between my torso, legs and arms as my hands passed over my knees on the recovery. This guy's erg video provides a good illustration: http://youtu.be/ye7e0mitDdU?t=16s. Also, I would think about the side seam on my shirt making a nice, straight line from my hip up to my armpit during the recovery. Coach Kaehler has some good stuff on the topic http://www.row2k.com/columns/565/Coach- ... 1GBSsRDvno, as well as lots of good information about hamstring flexibility, which I found I was really lacking. Good luck!