Catch Video

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caustic
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Re: Catch Video

Post by caustic »

Arch wrote:
completeIgnorance wrote:I don't understand the argument about increasing wetted surface after vertical acceleration is finished. Doesn't a boat (displacement hull) simply displace the weight placed upon it? So, by saying, "sitting in the bow increases wetted surface area", are people stating that somehow the mass has increased just by its positioning? Doesn't the stern lift when the rowers are positioned in the bow? Thus, reducing the wetted surface area in the stern? Wouldn't wetted surface area only increase if the hull was designed improperly?
Yes and no. Boats do move up and down through the stroke cycle, displacing more at one time than another, and just like with speed, the mean displacement is not directly proportional to the mean drag. More variance for the same mean displacement produces more drag. So caustic's idea is that by holding bodies in bow after the release you produce more sinking of the boat at that point in the cycle, made up for later in the cycle. I'm not sure that's right. A quick motion of body out of bow inevitably involves some vertical component which is compensated by motion of the hull, so you may end up with more up and down motion by moving too quickly. On the other hand, as caustic also points out, it's all a compromise like everything in rowing. In the absence of well-confirmed models, we go with what experience says works. I'm with Kit on the Australian approach. It seems best to me in the absence of hard data.

I think it really does kinda boil down to preference :). The thing you can noticed when you see rowers, especially elite ones, is that when they catch the boat, you do see it lift out of the water a little bit, and when they release, it drops down. In terms of idealities, you want that rise and fall to be as little as possible, because that's energy moving the boat in a direction you really don't care if it travels - up and down, not forward. Now, the boat rise at the catch is pretty much not horrible - the boat sits a bit higher, and there's less overall wetted surface area on the entire shell (because some of the weight of the rowers is transferred as force on the blades, which is why the boat rises).

But, sooner or later that weight force that is translated into propulsive force on the oars is going to stop, because the rowers must stop rowing, and that means that that will move that force of weight back to the boat, which is why is settles down in general at the end of ever stroke. BUT, if that weight settles down ahead of the designed COG, you not only have the entire boat dropping back down, but now you're doing it in a fashion that puts a dry portion, the bow, into the water, and at the highest speed point of the boat, meaning the highest friction.

And as it rises back out, water resists this rise a tiny bit through surface tension. some of this excess motion is unavoidable, but the effort isn't to eliminate it, but to reduce it as much as possible. Less bow dive means less increased friction at the finish, less water sticking to the hull as it rises out, smaller wave that radiates from the impulse of the drop/rise.
caustic
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Re: Catch Video

Post by caustic »

Steven M-M wrote:cI -- I don't think the wetted surface will change with body position even in a poorly designed hull. I may be wrong about this, but I do think that after the finish the hull does settle a little deeper. I always thought this was because the blades are bearing a small proportion of your weight, and with the blades out of the water that weight goes on the seat. With good technique you can minimize this weighting and unweighting. (I also think my comments above on wave drag are suspect.)
The wave drag is also a big factor, I'd agree with that. you can see how waves radiate off by just leaning back and forward again when sitting in a single, and in calm water you can easily see the ripples come off the hull.
KitD
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Re: Catch Video

Post by KitD »

caustic wrote:
Steven M-M wrote:cI -- I don't think the wetted surface will change with body position even in a poorly designed hull. I may be wrong about this, but I do think that after the finish the hull does settle a little deeper. I always thought this was because the blades are bearing a small proportion of your weight, and with the blades out of the water that weight goes on the seat. With good technique you can minimize this weighting and unweighting. (I also think my comments above on wave drag are suspect.)
The wave drag is also a big factor, I'd agree with that. you can see how waves radiate off by just leaning back and forward again when sitting in a single, and in calm water you can easily see the ripples come off the hull.
I believe wave drag makes up about 9% of the total drag on a racing shell. The vast majority is skin drag from WSA. It is one of the reasons why bow bulbs are pointless in rowing.
Steven M-M
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Re: Catch Video

Post by Steven M-M »

Without any engineering/physics in my background, my understanding of all this has come in bits & pieces. I always imagined “wave drag” as the result of the little waves produced the rising and falling of the hull during the stroke; those were the waves that I could see. As I understand Carl Douglas’ piece in Rowing 360, these smaller waves are but one source of wave drag. The other, much longer waves are the inevitable result of the shell moving through the water.
Steven M-M
Steven M-M
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Re: Catch Video

Post by Steven M-M »

To shift the conversation a little, what are RI posters thoughts on this recent analysis by Kleshnev: http://www.biorow.com/RBN_en_2015_files ... News01.pdf Here the focus is on minimizing the drag introduce by within stroke speed variations.

Take away points (& please correct me if I misinterpreted):
-- Speed variations within the stroke increases drag, requiring more watts for same average speed or reducing average speed
-- The primary source of this variation differs when stroke rate is below or above 24
-- At race pace the best strategy to minimize within stroke variation is, relative to the recovery, shorten the time on the drive while maintaining stroke length and spreading the pulling force on the stretcher evenly across the recovery.
Steven M-M
caustic
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Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: Catch Video

Post by caustic »

Steven M-M wrote:To shift the conversation a little, what are RI posters thoughts on this recent analysis by Kleshnev: http://www.biorow.com/RBN_en_2015_files ... News01.pdf Here the focus is on minimizing the drag introduce by within stroke speed variations.

Take away points (& please correct me if I misinterpreted):
-- Speed variations within the stroke increases drag, requiring more watts for same average speed or reducing average speed
-- The primary source of this variation differs when stroke rate is below or above 24
-- At race pace the best strategy to minimize within stroke variation is, relative to the recovery, shorten the time on the drive while maintaining stroke length and spreading the pulling force on the stretcher evenly across the recovery.
That makes sense, especially if you think of how the stroke was taught a long time ago.

IIRC, Fairbairn, and other rowers of that era stressed a very sharp and savage catch, and a firm finish, to emphasize keeping the pressure at the start and the end as firm as possible, PERHAPS knowing through experience that these are the two portions where force application is the lowest during the stroke.
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