Dumb and Dumber poll

[KitD]

Looks like Americans may be trying to mount a comeback on this one. Incredible that Brexit was also four years ago and still hasn't really been sorted out.

Though Biden strikes me as a great pick, I'm a long way from being convinced the culture war is anywhere near won, on either side of the pond.

[lt.wolf]

Note , only a portion of Americans are “attempting “ to mount a comeback.

He will be dragged out of there eventually, NY prosecutors are waiting.

[hacksculler]

These polls are so cringeworthy. As an anti-trump conservative, it's laughable to see the left "take" the intellectual and moral high ground when in reality, the legacy media has been playing you like puppets for the last 4 years. I'm no genius, but if I'm an American whose obligation it is to discern the information that gets shoveled down our throats on a daily basis, I'm probably going to listen to what the best judicial system in the world has to say in this situation. I'm in no position to predict what the outcome of the court hearings might be, but my other option is to side with big tech, legacy media, and the emotional left who continue to peddle a narrative that produced $25M in investigations into fake hoaxes for Trump's first term, as well as extremely butchered election and polling predictions for the second time in a row.

Maybe it's time to look in the mirror and realize as the party of tolerance and open-mindedness, you owe it to yourselves to ignore the puppet show you're being played in and see if Trump-voting Americans who are asking for a fair election are really that dumb...

@kitd you're right, this man is fit to be the most important person in the world https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzBdBj5QWyY

[lt.wolf]

https://time.com/5908505/trump-lawsuits-biden-wins/

[fullmetal]

hacksculler, as someone who used to be in your ideological shoes, I do believe the ideals of conservatism have been obliterated in an emotionally-manipulated race toward some semblance of far-right purity. At this point, I don't believe the principles value human life anymore, and the word conservative doesn't hold meaning for me anymore.

Anyway, I do not believe we are "being played by the legacy media" at all as that implies the media have some sort of end goal in mind. I also don't really consume "legacy media," for whatever your definition of that term seems to mean. Finally, I don't believe that the Dems are actually the party of tolerance and open-mindedness. I think those are not actually values of the party, and such labels are meaningless and counterproductive. No one cares about tolerance for the sake of tolerance, and no one really cares for open-mindedness for its own sake.

Finally, I would buy the election fairness argument if the context supported it. The context most certainly does not support this. Trump is, for the most part, seeking to invalidate ballots that were cast in good faith according to the law at the time of casting. This is substantively different from trying to make sure all cast ballots are counted. While his campaign is trying to do that in Arizona and Nevada (in an attempt to erase Biden's margins; numerically unlikely), he is putting a lot of eggs in the "late Pennsylvania votes should be made illegal" basket.

I have no doubt that if Trump had won Pennsylvania, he would not at all be filing such lawsuits against late ballot counting because he does not actually care about the legality of all ballots. We should not be manipulated into thinking that he cares about fairness and democracy.

I apologize if this is too political.

[sandor]

The thing is, swing voters in swing states seem to be the ones that voted Trump out.

Philly maintained its 60% turnout and 80/20 Dem/Rep split it has had for decades.

But, flipping from 2016, Trump lost Erie, Northampton, & even Luzerne (middle of coal country) gave Biden a 4% bump in 2020.

Independent, moderate voters who are not beholden to a political party gave Trump a chance in 2016, +40,000 votes,
and took Trump out in 2020, -40,000 votes.


The far right & far left voted precisely how you would expect.

The center voted Trump out & down ticket Republicans in.

[hacksculler]

hacksculler, as someone who used to be in your ideological shoes, I do believe the ideals of conservatism have been obliterated in an emotionally-manipulated race toward some semblance of far-right purity. At this point, I don't believe the principles value human life anymore, and the word conservative doesn't hold meaning for me anymore.

Anyway, I do not believe we are "being played by the legacy media" at all as that implies the media have some sort of end goal in mind. I also don't really consume "legacy media," for whatever your definition of that term seems to mean. Finally, I don't believe that the Dems are actually the party of tolerance and open-mindedness. I think those are not actually values of the party, and such labels are meaningless and counterproductive. No one cares about tolerance for the sake of tolerance, and no one really cares for open-mindedness for its own sake.

Finally, I would buy the election fairness argument if the context supported it. The context most certainly does not support this. Trump is, for the most part, seeking to invalidate ballots that were cast in good faith according to the law at the time of casting. This is substantively different from trying to make sure all cast ballots are counted. While his campaign is trying to do that in Arizona and Nevada (in an attempt to erase Biden's margins; numerically unlikely), he is putting a lot of eggs in the "late Pennsylvania votes should be made illegal" basket.

I have no doubt that if Trump had won Pennsylvania, he would not at all be filing such lawsuits against late ballot counting because he does not actually care about the legality of all ballots. We should not be manipulated into thinking that he cares about fairness and democracy.

I apologize if this is too political.

I respect and appreciate your opinion. While I'm going to wait until the court hearings to speak any further about the election, I wholeheartedly disagree with you on the media's influence in this political environment. Trump is no saint, we all know that. He's not a politician, he's rough around the edges, and he's an absolute clown on twitter. He's a pig with women, ****************. This is where the libs lose credibility- if you're going to dig up dirt on Trump, acknowledge Biden's and Hillary's as well. The left-leaning media (CNN, MSN, ABC etc.) leverages useful idiots, or people who are susceptible to propaganda & manipulation, can't debate policy, and are emotionally charged. There seem to be some on this board as well.

Need an example? Revisit Kavanaugh Hoax, Mueller Investigation Hoax, Impeachment Hoax, Covington Kids Hoax, Jussie Smollett Hoax, 2016 Election polls, 2020 Election Polls, and all the MSM headlines pertaining to the above.

There's really not much else to say. These events make up a narrative that creates internal rage inside useful idiots, harping on therapeutic tales of racism, sexism, white privilege, collusion, homophobia etc. etc against the Trump Administration, with a goal of getting Trump out of office.

So yeah, might want to reevaluate this poll

[rowingpun]

big tech, legacy media, and the emotional left who continue to peddle a narrative that produced $25M in investigations into fake hoaxes for Trump's first term, as well as extremely butchered election and polling predictions for the second time in a row.

For an anti-trumper you sure do ascribe to the most trumpy of rhetoric. Big tech and "legacy media"(again, whatever the hell that means) are the reasons the president is in office, played like a fiddle much? If there was some conspiracy against him and his supporters, then he probably wouldn't have been on the front pages of ever news site, paper and magazine for the entirety of the 2016 primaries. He probably would/should have been shut out of twitter, youtube, facebook and IG based on community standards several times over, yet he did not.

One thing you do get right by accident are the "fake hoaxes". They weren't hoaxes at all, the Russians influenced the 2016 election, full stop. The Trump campaign was approached several times by Russians, which is why that campaign ended up as part of the early investigation. The campaign was not found to have explicitly conspired with the Russians, but certainly did nothing to alert the government of the Russian influence campaign. The media isn't telling this story, actual conservative, Robert Mueller came to these conclusions.

Butchered election. Is there a new meaning to this word where when you are successful it is butchered? Gaining seats in the senate and winning the WH is not exactly a failure. Keep me posted.

The left does not poll, pollsters do. And this is the second time in a row they go it correct, for those keeping score at home. The average margin of error in 2016 was below the historical average error and comparable to the past several elections with modern polling methods. How did Trafalgar do this time?

[yeahbuddy]

Trump sheep

[limegreenspeed]

The USA is an empire in decline. The decline started four decades ago and it has ruined both political parties, which are owned by the extremely wealthy upper-class of billionaire business owners, who could care less who is in office so long as their tax rates are low, they can expand business, monopolize industries as desired, and erode employment protections. Basically anything that benefits them. Government is around to help manage and allocate resource trade, distribution and taxation, it can't do that if the few wealthily, rather than the majority, dictate tax rates, etc.

Add in massive technological disruption, cheap overseas labour, defunded government/increased privatization and deregulated industries, and here we are. Compound the slow erosion of protections and wealth going to the middle class and eventually you no longer have a relatively healthily, happy, securely and sufficiently employed, and moderately wealthy middle class, and you get American politics for the last decade. The whole point of government without force or coercion is that some large class of the population stands to benefit, when they feel those benefits slipping, trouble begins, the same way your toddler gets angry when they're tired, the anger has a source, whether they can identify or not

You have hundreds of millions gouging themselves on cheap debt to fund consumption, overpriced education which under delivers or doesn't deliver, and voila, the state of the USA, consumed in conspiracies, rage from minorities that may say inaccurate things while their source of pain is obvious, etc. When I see people try to address the conspiracies of the right head on, or the statements of BLM taken at face value, I roll my eyes. The culture war is a sideshow and symptom of a series of generations losing out on what their parents had and they're rightly angry. I don't think this decline will end well, systems are entrenched and power and wealth can move. It's also a collective action problem for big business and billionaires.

[rowing]

Hmmm.....

In 2016 and 2020, *LESS* than half of the national votes were for Trump.

In the 2016 Brexit, *MORE* than half of the national votes were to leave.

Just pointing out some mathematical blemishes on the face you're trying to paint.

[Big Koala VI]

The USA is an empire in decline. The decline started four decades ago and it has ruined both political parties, which are owned by the extremely wealthy upper-class of billionaire business owners, who could care less who is in office so long as their tax rates are low, they can expand business, monopolize industries as desired, and erode employment protections. Basically anything that benefits them. Government is around to help manage and allocate resource trade, distribution and taxation, it can't do that if the few wealthily, rather than the majority, dictate tax rates, etc.

Add in massive technological disruption, cheap overseas labour, defunded government/increased privatization and deregulated industries, and here we are. Compound the slow erosion of protections and wealth going to the middle class and eventually you no longer have a relatively healthily, happy, securely and sufficiently employed, and moderately wealthy middle class, and you get American politics for the last decade. The whole point of government without force or coercion is that some large class of the population stands to benefit, when they feel those benefits slipping, trouble begins, the same way your toddler gets angry when they're tired, the anger has a source, whether they can identify or not

You have hundreds of millions gouging themselves on cheap debt to fund consumption, overpriced education which under delivers or doesn't deliver, and voila, the state of the USA, consumed in conspiracies, rage from minorities that may say inaccurate things while their source of pain is obvious, etc. When I see people try to address the conspiracies of the right head on, or the statements of BLM taken at face value, I roll my eyes. The culture war is a sideshow and symptom of a series of generations losing out on what their parents had and they're rightly angry. I don't think this decline will end well, systems are entrenched and power and wealth can move. It's also a collective action problem for big business and billionaires.

Lot of stuff I agree with here. (And I get the feeling you're a fellow Canuck )
I would maybe differ on a couple of your final points, that various minorities have invalid/inaccurate claims and that 'the culture war is a sideshow'. There have always been backlashes by bigots to social progression in the USA (Reconstruction after the Civil War, Civil Rights movement in the 60's) that resulted in the deaths of minorities.
Hopefully more of the country and world sees how popular (and desperately needed) social progression is.
In Florida, Democrats got crushed, while minimum wage won comfortably. (The Florida Democratic Party intentionally distanced itself from the initiative because... it was too far left).
And as Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez puts it in a recent NYT interview: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/07/us/p ... sives.html
"I’ve been begging the party to let me help them for two years. That’s also the damn thing of it. I’ve been trying to help. Before the election, I offered to help every single swing district Democrat with their operation. And every single one of them, but five, refused my help. And all five of the vulnerable or swing district people that I helped secured victory or are on a path to secure victory. And every single one that rejected my help is losing. And now they’re blaming us for their loss."
Hopefully more citizens 'get woke' and realize that life can get better without sacrificing things, be them friends, jobs, family members, or futures for their children.