Vintage Rowing examples

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sul
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Re: Vintage Rowing examples

Post by sul »

fullmetal wrote:sul, would it be correct to characterize a ferryman's finish as "pulling" the body forward into the recovery swing at the finish?
Not sure I'd describe it as pulling, but the shoulders move aft before the blade releases.

In conversations with Conn and Duvall over the years, (actually a great road trip with Conn a couple years ago), here's how I believe the ideal ferryman's inish works.

the body swings hard and further than we currently swing (more like Spracklin's Canadian eight several years ago).

The handle stops and holds a moment before reaching the body and the shoulders swing forward against the handle.
The oar shaft straightens against the held handle, the handle pushes away and feathers out the back of the puddle.

I don't believe that you are pulling on the footboards(perceptibly) to change body direction, but locked against the handle.

handle and body move quickly out of bow, quick hands and body out.

The effect is that the body weight never settles into the bow to drive the boat down. Feathering is more passive than active at the release.

Keep in mind I'm describing as best I can what has been described to me by two different athletes at different times. I have shared my observations in the past of what I actually see the rowers do then.
fullmetal
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Re: Vintage Rowing examples

Post by fullmetal »

Ok. Hmm. When I hear "the handle stops" I start to wonder. The boat is always in motion, and water is always flowing past the boat. If the handle stops, the blade stops w.r.t. the shell. But the water doesn't stop moving past the shell. So maybe the stopped handle is actually just zero pressure against the water and the blade is moving with the water past the shell as it's being extracted?

Not letting the body weight sink into the bow was a great visualization aid. I've always been a great fan of faster hands away/body over.
caustic
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Re: Vintage Rowing examples

Post by caustic »

Someone in my club's facebook group posted a link to this video - 1983 sculling group in Seattle. Frank Cunningham, Harry Parker, and Dick Erickson with some good slow-motion parts of a National Team sculling camp with Brad Lewis and Paul Enquist rowing in it, as well as several different cut scenes of UW M8+ doing some scrimmages.

https://www.row2k.com/video/National-Te ... 53AN5xacc8
caustic
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Re: Vintage Rowing examples

Post by caustic »

fullmetal wrote:Ok. Hmm. When I hear "the handle stops" I start to wonder. The boat is always in motion, and water is always flowing past the boat. If the handle stops, the blade stops w.r.t. the shell. But the water doesn't stop moving past the shell. So maybe the stopped handle is actually just zero pressure against the water and the blade is moving with the water past the shell as it's being extracted?

Not letting the body weight sink into the bow was a great visualization aid. I've always been a great fan of faster hands away/body over.
Not really. When you pull, the shaft bends. This is a store of energy. The ferryman's finish tries to make use of that - As the handles stop moving towards the body, the shaft "unsprings", which keeps pressure on the blade as it's underwater, preserving the pocket behind it. So, you have a very brief moment in time where the handle isn't moving, but *the blade still is*.
fullmetal
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Re: Vintage Rowing examples

Post by fullmetal »

Ok, that makes sense. But for me, this is now in the realm of "theoretically true yet physically unlikely to be executed properly"...oar looms tend to be stiffer these days, no? (Did materials technology render this style ineffective?)
sandor
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Re: Vintage Rowing examples

Post by sandor »

fullmetal wrote:Ok, that makes sense. But for me, this is now in the realm of "theoretically true yet physically unlikely to be executed properly"...oar looms tend to be stiffer these days, no? (Did materials technology render this style ineffective?)
https://www.concept2.com/oars/oar-optio ... /stiffness


Image
caustic
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Re: Vintage Rowing examples

Post by caustic »

fullmetal wrote:Ok, that makes sense. But for me, this is now in the realm of "theoretically true yet physically unlikely to be executed properly"...oar looms tend to be stiffer these days, no? (Did materials technology render this style ineffective?)

I would argue that not only is it still possible, but it's still critical to good rowing. Granted, everything is stiffer. But that also means that a lot of minor movements that in the past might have been absorbed by the flexion of the shell or shaft are now transmitted directly to the water - so one needs to be even more precise in their rowing. All things being equal, now that minor movements and effects are amplified by increased stiffness, using even that smaller amount of spring in the oar is still critical to making sure that the boat's speed is preserved. Ultimately, fast, good rowing requires using up as much of the energy that the rower puts into the system towards moving the boat forward. Using any trick to keep the blade pressing against the water longer, or keeping the body's weight from settling in the bow, is always going to be better than not doing those things.

I would also argue that it's not that difficult to get a good hang on doing it - you just need to make your regular rowing less dependent upon using your muscles to get you out of bow. Feet out rowing IMHO necessitates learning how to come out on the oar effectively. If you can row just as fast with your feet out as you can with your feet in, there's never going to be a coach who says that's a bad thing.

If you ever get the chance to row with wooden oars, they're definitely a lot more "slippery" at the catch, because there's a very pronounced period of time where you're work pulling is bending the oar more than getting the blade to really "lock in" with the water. Part of the mechanics of good rowing demands being able to lock and load the blade simultaneously, or as close to as possible.

I would say that if you love your back, and you love rowing well, don't get the stiffest oars possible. I use the S2 soft's and I've found them to be not only really comfortable, but my rowing has, over the 10+ years I've owned them, improved pretty well (but then, if you do something for 20 years, you better get at least halfway decent at it).

The nice thing about the bend in the oar is that it helps smooth out the force curve. In a perfect world, the force curve would be a perfectly horizontal line from catch to finish - the rower immediately applies full pressure at the catch, and maintains that all the way to the finish where it's immediately turned off. But we all know that that ideality is physically impossible. A more "realistic" force curve would be a rounded square, where the rower quickly ramps up to full pressure, and then maintains that and has a smooth ramp down to the finish. It's easy to get that quick ramp up when your big muscles are doing the work at the catch, but they're not available at the finish to maintain that force. That bend "saves" some of that big muscle energy, and releases it towards the back end of the stroke.

A comparison I'd say would be with cycling today. Surprisingly, carbon fiber bikes in pro races are *not* the stiffest possible frame; there are advantages to maximizing flexion in different axes of motion. They are deliberately designed to have a bit of flex in them, so that the contact of the tires with the road is maintained as consistently as possible. A too-stiff bicycle frame will actually create uneven traction, and especially on ascents, it's not too hard for a hard pedaling rider to have the front wheel break contact with the road.

http://kirkframeworks.com/resources/tec ... rame-flex/
Big Koala VI
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Re: Vintage Rowing examples

Post by Big Koala VI »

Not sure that the deflection allows for much time at all.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27398746/
There they tested the deflection of oars of length 2.66-2.70 and found a deflection angle of 1.18°. The difference between tip points of a deflected and a straight oar would then be *pushes up glasses* 0.0552m. Even at a gentle speed of 2:00/500m in a pair, that would only allocate 0.013 seconds. It is an amount of time, but I don't think the various shifts in momentum that we feel in the boat is the oar straightening, it could be the pocket of air behind the blade being filled.
fullmetal
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Re: Vintage Rowing examples

Post by fullmetal »

~5.5 cm as per the journal article is right in the ballpark of the reported C2 figures imo. But I agree that the straightening of the oar (release of stored energy from bent shaft) is not likely to significantly enable a ferryman's finish. In fact, I might posit that the amount of dead time spent over the first ~5 cm of the drive bending the shaft (if there is no blade slip) makes the boat even slower in the long run. I'd much rather not play games with a ferryman's finish if it requires dead time at the catch or start of the drive.

Hard to argue with the injury correlation with stiffer materials, but maybe the trend toward reducing the outboard/inboard ratio (to sustain higher rates) can help...either that or change the blade surface area geometry, if the goal is to decrease the load at the catch. I think it's important to get out of the stern quickly.

I do agree that body weight should not be dumped into the bow (vertically) at the finish. The way some people row, not only is an underwater feather a result of, but the pulling down of the handles (rather than horizontal) pushes the bow deeper into the water at the finish, needlessly increasing wetted surface area/drag.
Stelph
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Re: Vintage Rowing examples

Post by Stelph »

caustic wrote:
fullmetal wrote: I would say that if you love your back, and you love rowing well, don't get the stiffest oars possible. I use the S2 soft's and I've found them to be not only really comfortable, but my rowing has, over the 10+ years I've owned them, improved pretty well (but then, if you do something for 20 years, you better get at least halfway decent at it).

The nice thing about the bend in the oar is that it helps smooth out the force curve. In a perfect world, the force curve would be a perfectly horizontal line from catch to finish - the rower immediately applies full pressure at the catch, and maintains that all the way to the finish where it's immediately turned off. But we all know that that ideality is physically impossible. A more "realistic" force curve would be a rounded square, where the rower quickly ramps up to full pressure, and then maintains that and has a smooth ramp down to the finish. It's easy to get that quick ramp up when your big muscles are doing the work at the catch, but they're not available at the finish to maintain that force. That bend "saves" some of that big muscle energy, and releases it towards the back end of the stroke.


http://kirkframeworks.com/resources/tec ... rame-flex/
Although this is commonly accepted in rowing this recent study actually suggests it may not be true.

https://ir.lib.uwo.ca/cgi/viewcontent.c ... ontext=etd

"There were small differences in the boat accelerations between Medium and Extra-Soft oar-shafts. The differences in acceleration between the oars of different stiffness were presumably on the same order of magnitude as the rower’s inter-stroke inconstancies. These findings contradict the notion that less stiff oar-shafts increase boat acceleration towards the end of the drive
via high rates of inverse deflection. It is projected that the water provides a damping effect on the blade’s movement, and thus prevents the oar-shafts from inversely deflecting at such high rates."
caustic
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Re: Vintage Rowing examples

Post by caustic »

Interesting! This does raise some good questions on the effect of technique vs. mechanics in a rowing stroke - if the blade bend doesn't aid with a rower's release, is it just their ability to "balance" their weight over their COM that helps with the finish? Ferryman's finish, or coming out on the oar, etc. is something that's pretty well observed as a technical style in rowing, and has been for some time. I wonder, then, what the mechanics are of that motion to contribute to either preserving or enhancing boat speed, and to what degree.
Stelph
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Re: Vintage Rowing examples

Post by Stelph »

caustic wrote:Interesting! This does raise some good questions on the effect of technique vs. mechanics in a rowing stroke - if the blade bend doesn't aid with a rower's release, is it just their ability to "balance" their weight over their COM that helps with the finish? Ferryman's finish, or coming out on the oar, etc. is something that's pretty well observed as a technical style in rowing, and has been for some time. I wonder, then, what the mechanics are of that motion to contribute to either preserving or enhancing boat speed, and to what degree.
That is what I would say those who are rowing well and are identified as doing a ferrymans finish (Ginn and Tomkins for example) are doing. They have good control of their core and aren't over-rocking into the bows during the stroke which makes it easier to then rock over in the finish/recovery. I think its also a reflection of a more front loaded force curve, the finish is less important than a quick/smooth recovery to get back to the catch in order to keep the rate up and the boat accelerating
caustic
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Re: Vintage Rowing examples

Post by caustic »

Stelph wrote:
caustic wrote:Interesting! This does raise some good questions on the effect of technique vs. mechanics in a rowing stroke - if the blade bend doesn't aid with a rower's release, is it just their ability to "balance" their weight over their COM that helps with the finish? Ferryman's finish, or coming out on the oar, etc. is something that's pretty well observed as a technical style in rowing, and has been for some time. I wonder, then, what the mechanics are of that motion to contribute to either preserving or enhancing boat speed, and to what degree.
That is what I would say those who are rowing well and are identified as doing a ferrymans finish (Ginn and Tomkins for example) are doing. They have good control of their core and aren't over-rocking into the bows during the stroke which makes it easier to then rock over in the finish/recovery. I think its also a reflection of a more front loaded force curve, the finish is less important than a quick/smooth recovery to get back to the catch in order to keep the rate up and the boat accelerating

Could this kind of finish maybe be an example of a technical style that, perhaps, originally evolved to make use of blade bend (when blades were much more flexible), but easily transferred over to more stiff blades because of its control over body mass? The one thing I do notice is that while the oar behavior is different between an older wooden one and a more modern stiff one, the body positioning at a good finish in both situations is practically identical.

One thing I remember is when you look at how the body works a load around an oar in "slow motion", the correct finish angle of the lower body ends up being pretty darn close to what is seen in what is IDed as a ferryman's finish - Not sure if anyone has an old Model A around still, but not too long ago we still had a couple in the boathouse, and it was a great tool to use to show what a correct finish would look like, because you can "unroll" the drive in slow motion from catch to finish simply by controlling the flywheel with your hands and slowly unreeling it as the rower was suspended on the handle, with their butt just barely touching the seat.
fullmetal
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Re: Vintage Rowing examples

Post by fullmetal »

I'm not sure I believe in one, singular "correct body angle at the finish." I think a rower can use whatever body angle works so long as the additional length is actually effective at moving the boat (ROI drops off significantly the larger the layback), and so long as the additional layback doesn't adversely affect other elements of rowing such as desired stroke rate, nose-diving of the bow (weight dumping), etc. We all know what too much looks like, but as the Brits and Canadians have contrasted against each other, there are many ways to move a boat.
Stelph
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Re: Vintage Rowing examples

Post by Stelph »

fullmetal wrote:I'm not sure I believe in one, singular "correct body angle at the finish." I think a rower can use whatever body angle works so long as the additional length is actually effective at moving the boat (ROI drops off significantly the larger the layback), and so long as the additional layback doesn't adversely affect other elements of rowing such as desired stroke rate, nose-diving of the bow (weight dumping), etc. We all know what too much looks like, but as the Brits and Canadians have contrasted against each other, there are many ways to move a boat.
Id be inclined to agree - the main aspects of a "fast" rowing stroke is rowing long/rowing powerfully and rating high without adding much check. Biomechanics tells us that the blade is most effective when at the catch or coming through to the finish

What is often called the "ferrymans finish" is one way of rowing a boat fast and as mentioned I think it comes about when you emphasizes the catch and then want to get onto the next stroke as quickly as possible, after all, its almost impossible to speed up the blade in the water without shortening or tearing the water so instead you speed up the recovery. But its not the only way to row fast, adding more emphasis at the finish like with the Canadian layback would use the blade efficiency through the finish and, as the canadians showed, is also fast.
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