USRowing | Youths Nats 2023

[Mango]

I know I beat this drum all the time, but the addition of time trials as a replacement for progression instead of addition to is bad for the the sport.

Youth Nationals is a 4 day event with a $90 spectator ticket, and half the field goes TT right to C/D final with no further progression? The only time they get into a stake boat is to line up for a final? Woof.

[fullmetal]

I don't disagree, but what's your proposed solution?

[FullSend]

Some sort of TT-Reps. Maybe top 8 go straight to semis, then 9-24 to reps (2 8 boat reps).

My preference (At least in the U19 events) is everyone gets at least 1 real race. Especially in the 8s, those TT times are absurdly tight. If I'm Sarasota men, Im just cooked with boats they're within a couple seca of making the leap to the A final and you never saw them side by side

[Mango]

I don't disagree, but what's your proposed solution?

A number of things:

- We don’t need U15, U16, U17, and U18. Scrap it for Jr B/U16 and Varsity.
- Drop the 2V
- Drop the multiple qualifiers in all the regions. There was a time when getting a medal at SRA’s meant you could also get a medal at Youths. Drop them all for top 3 at SRAA.(NEIRA is admittedly wonky. Keep the winner?)

The problem is the primary focus is revenue not rowing or the regatta experience. USR can and should host a youth regatta series around revenue. Host relays all summer all over. Get creative. Make it fun. Ultimately you have to remedy the money grab issue. Once you solve for that through entries/events the meaningful progression problem solves itself.

[a_coach]

- We don’t need U15, U16, U17, and U18. Scrap it for Jr B/U16 and Varsity.
- Drop the 2V

I don’t necessarily disagree, but of the 16 real events you’ve only trimmed four assuming you are replacing all the u17 with Jr B. (2v8, u16 8, u15 and u16 4x+)

- Drop the multiple qualifiers in all the regions. There was a time when getting a medal at SRA’s meant you could also get a medal at Youths. Drop them all for top 3 at SRAA.(NEIRA is admittedly wonky. Keep the winner?)

There’s a very short list of scholastics with bids. This would trim four of 35 bids and force NYS crews to go to mid Atlantics if they aren’t scholastic (NYS is open to clubs) and SRAAs was just two weeks ago. Making the schools go to another regatta and then giving them two weeks to make travel arrangements will make it it even more expensive for them.

The problem is the primary focus is revenue not rowing or the regatta experience. USR can and should host a youth regatta series around revenue. Host relays all summer all over. Get creative. Make it fun. Ultimately you have to remedy the money grab issue. Once you solve for that through entries/events the meaningful progression problem solves itself.

I’m not sure what this means. What are relays?

[a_coach]

Some sort of TT-Reps. Maybe top 8 go straight to semis, then 9-24 to reps (2 8 boat reps).

My preference (At least in the U19 events) is everyone gets at least 1 real race. Especially in the 8s, those TT times are absurdly tight. If I'm Sarasota men, Im just cooked with boats they're within a couple seca of making the leap to the A final and you never saw them side by side

This is what they did in 2019, and then sent rep losers to c and d finals. It would take more time, not sure how much. I would think most kids would prefer it even if you cut out the c and d finals, so everyone is still alive till they lose the rep

[fullmetal]

The older I get, the more I dislike any system that puts an extra race on athletes to end up in the same spot. If you're going to send 9-24 to reps, what's wrong with having four 8-boat semis, taking the top 32 from time trials? Top two to the A, next two to the B, next two to the C, and last two to the D (since we're running eight lane finals).

I really don't want to see kids racing four times in three days in the Sarasota heat. Three hard races ought to be enough.

[FullSend]

Youths is a 4 day regatta at this point. Is 4 races in 4 days too much? I don't particularly think so. I don't love reps, I just don't like people being out of contention from just a TT. Some regattas and events it's fine, but with how tight the Youth 8 TTs were in particular it's just insane.

Cap entries to 32 and do 4 heats of 8 boats, top 4 advancing all the way through. If you're not advancing because 4 people beat you already, then that's that.

A million ways to tweak it (top 2 + next 8 fastest times), but I'd rather the main progression was real racing then have C+D finals if they needed to go

[fullmetal]

I don't love reps, I just don't like people being out of contention from just a TT.

I don't like the idea of a true contender being out of the running from a bad TT, but I'm not sure a true contender would be that far off the pace in a TT.

As far as someone being out of contention from a TT, have you seen the bottom results of each TT and compared them to the top? (That's how you know there's a money grab happening, when crews who are clearly not competitive are still getting invites because the structure allows it. /s) I feel like the bottom finishers in a TT really aren't going to shock the world with a meaningfully different multi-lane race result.

[rowing]

- We don’t need U15, U16, U17, and U18. Scrap it for Jr B/U16 and Varsity.

Goodbye $$$!! And just for the record, the U15, U16, U17, and U19 is almost category for category what the Brits do. And those Brits are always smarter, right? Seems a bit disingenuous to complain we do it wrong, the UK/Euros do it right, and then when we copy the UK/Euros, "no!!!!!!!!" WTF?

Seriously, everyone whines about money, they make changes to get more of it, then you all whine about the cashgrab and schedule bloat.

C'mon folks.....take your meds or take a nap, please.

Let. It. Play. Out.

- Drop the 2V

Agreed. This does not fit the pure U15, U16, U17 and U19 hierarchy. It's an openly declared "second best" of a category. Why? Because Kyle's mom is sad little Bubby didn't make the 1V? Who cares?

- Drop the multiple qualifiers in all the regions. There was a time when getting a medal at SRA’s meant you could also get a medal at Youths. Drop them all for top 3 at SRAA.(NEIRA is admittedly wonky. Keep the winner?)

It's not feasible to drop them all, but they could be pared back.

The problem is the primary focus is revenue not rowing or the regatta experience.

No, that's the feature, not the bug.

In all honesty, you cannot parade an elite support wishlist for Santa, and then not expect to deal with reindeer poop on the roof. Pick a lane. This is how it works.

Let. It. Play. Out.

USR can and should host a youth regatta series around revenue. Host relays all summer all over. Get creative. Make it fun. Ultimately you have to remedy the money grab issue. Once you solve for that through entries/events the meaningful progression problem solves itself.

Summer 2023 is how they want it. ODP cash. Racing done by mid July. It fits the dorm availability schedule and the coach availability schedule. But more importantly, we haven't even completed the first run through.

Sing it with me.......

Let. It. Play. Out.

We give plenty of others a "full quadrennium" to faceplant. Let's give USRowing a chance to evaluate these significant changes.

I have it on good authority there will be plenty to scream about through the end of the decade. Save some squawk.

[a_coach]

Seems a bit disingenuous to complain we do it wrong, the UK/Euros do it right, and then when we copy the UK/Euros, "no!!!!!!!!" WTF?

Sounds great. NSR is about half the cost of Nats, not run by the NGB, it’s three days long, and events are over in one day so you’re not booking an entire week of travel for everyone.

[rowing]

Seems a bit disingenuous to complain we do it wrong, the UK/Euros do it right, and then when we copy the UK/Euros, "no!!!!!!!!" WTF?

Sounds great. NSR is about half the cost of Nats, not run by the NGB, it’s three days long, and events are over in one day so you’re not booking an entire week of travel for everyone.

Sweet. What's the entry count, geographical range of competitors, and can clubs attend?

Maybe we need that thar' LOTTERY if you all don't wanna pay twice the costs of the old way, which you all moaned about too.

Pick. A. Lane.

[a_coach]

I believe a similar number of athletes compete at NSR and nats. Geographic distribution makes me want to get in and out (how the invite used to be, and SRAA still is), not make a week of it.

So we are just openly juicing youth athletes for elite rowing. I didn’t realize it was overt. Good luck, hope no one else can figure out how to run a national championship regatta.

[rowing]

So we are just openly juicing youth athletes for elite rowing. I didn’t realize it was overt. Good luck, hope no one else can figure out how to run a national championship regatta.

By Jove, I think he's got it!

Can you condense that into a harmless sounding mission statement?

Asking for some friends...

[KitD]

FWIW, NSR details are here: https://www.nationalschoolsregatta.co.uk/

Synopsis here: https://www.britishrowing.org/2023/05/o ... s-regatta/

I think NSR benefits from being THE major summer event for UK juniors outside Henley. There are no qualifying "regional" championships. I think this makes things much simpler for organisers, athletes, coaches and supporters. Only one event in the discussion.